Talk:Metal Gear Solid V: Ground Zeroes
Portable Ops' state in the Cannon Many fans are having doubts as to the status of Portable Ops being Canonical. Kojima himself has said that he was ignoring it in the development of Peace Walker, dialogue within Peace Walker has brushed it off as "that crap". Multiple plot holes are created by Peace Walker ignoring Portable Ops, too, which shows that Portable Ops is slowly becoming the inflamed appendix of the series. The latest list of games released don't qualify it within the "big games" that have been released, just as it doesn't include Snake's Revenge, or the Acid titles, despite them being good games. Instead of saying that Portable Ops is Confirmed Cannon, we should be actively providing the idea that it's non-cannon, to remain unbiased. Whether or not Portable Ops is cannon may effect the outcome of this game, and it is undeniably showing signs of being dropped from Cannon, as the in-game universe is rejecting it, as well as Kojima himself. -Jiko :Okay, first off, its "canon", not "cannon." Second of all, that line about Miller was still a reference to Portable Ops, and if he truly wanted to just ignore it, he should have not brought up in the first place in the game, period. They didn't do that with Snake's Revenge and Metal Gear 2. In addition, I can cite several sources of information where Portable Ops is counted as canon: There's the MGS4 database, there's MGS4 itself (which not only showed stills from that game in certain cutscenes, but they even briefly referenced it at a few points, most notably in EVA's speech to Solid Snake in Act 3), there's the Metal Gear Sagas DVD's ending timeline and credits including it. Both the MGS4 timeline and the timeline that was displayed on the Konami site (and at one point even shown during a game discussion show with Hideo Kojima), and even the official Metal Gear Solid site briefly referenced the events of Portable Ops. Maybe it wasn't to the same extent as the other games, but it was most certainly listed there. Heck, one of the podcasts even stated that Portable Ops was "a canonical entry, but not a main chapter." :Besides, by your logic, we should list the events of Metal Gear 2 as being non-canon simply because Solid Snake underwent a huge regression in development in Metal Gear Solid compared to the ending of the aforementioned game, plus the game was omitted from the Konami site during Peace Walker's development. Heck, how about claiming that MGS4 is non canon simply because Big Boss's reaction to Paz's exposition on Cipher's history was of complete and utter unfamiliarity and confusion, despite clearly being one of those two men? It's not bias, its fact that Portable Ops remains canon. Actually, the only ones I've seen who actually try to claim we should label it as noncanon are those who hate the game. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 20:02, September 2, 2012 (UTC) ::Well, I apologise for my spelling error. I'm trying to keep this friendly, so let's proceed as if we're calmly discussing this. ::Second, there are lines in Metal Gear Solid 2 referencing Snake's Revenge, Ghost Babel, Snatcher, Idea Spy, but non of these make the games/stories directly Canon. Snake even says "I'm not a fan of blades" potentially in reference to Snake's Revenge, as otherwise it's an unnecessary character trait. It insults it, in fact. This does not make Snake's Revenge cannon. Likewise, Miller saying that line is no different. ::Metal Gear Solid 4's database was written by the old Rising team lead, and has several pieces of non-information such as Solidus having intentionally crashed Arsenal Gear into Manhatten (where as in act 4 of MGS4 Otacon said it was the Patriots), there's also a lot of stuff about Miller and Granin's Metal Gear docs that contradict Peace Walker, meaning that Kojima doesn't particularly care what the Database says. And in the end, Kojima knows what's canon, and what is non-canon. He is the voice of God. ::Metal Gear Solid 4 covered story points that Portable Ops set up in order to make sure you wouldn't have needed to play the game in order to understand it, making Portable Ops more useless to being in the Cannon. It doesn't directly reference events nor characters, just revelations from it. ::That old timeline is not the new timeline. You're debunking the new with the old, which is not the way to go. I'm making a note that it's falling out of favour with Kojima himself AS OF LATE. Metal Gear games get retconned, so can the timeline. The Podcasts also fall under The Database's lack of any real "Word of God" quality as Rising, and are probably prior to the new timeline. ::I don't understand how you think the events of Metal Gear 2 should be Non-Canon by my logic. There's nothing exactly wrong, Solid Snake's character was greatly expanded upon, and Zanzabar Land was referenced heavily. You're just trying to make my argument look stupid by pretending it's something else, which suggests you REALLY don't want Portable Ops to be non-canon, which again suggests a bias in your writings. ::I'll confirm that I don't hate Portable Ops. It's not as good as the other games, but it's still got some good sneaking gameplay to it. I just believe that recent events are trying to throw it out of the canon, and you may be holding on to it a bit too hard, or taking this argument a bit too personally. Please try to remain calm, you're becoming unnaturally angry over this. :: ::I'll state again, in game dialogue, and multiple ignorances of it from Kojima himself, not the Konami Marketing Department, or his lap-dogs, refutals including http://m.uk.ign.com/articles/2009/08/20/gc-2009-hideo-kojima-qa this one article, and many other suggestions make it A POTENTIAL that it's planned to denounce Portable Ops from the canon due to it being both useless and overly retconned. ::You're denying that there's even A POTENTIAL that Portable Ops WILL BE dropped from canon? :::Okay, I don't recall the whole thing about Snake disliking blades being specifically a reference to Snake's Revenge. In case you haven't noticed, he also fought against Gray Fox (who did use a blade at one point) in MGS, so he could just as easily have been referring to that. Also, regarding Ghost Babel, the only reference to Ghost Babel in Metal Gear Solid 2 was when the Colonel was glitching up, meaning it was intended to be babbling and not a real reference. That's not the same thing. The Snatcher reference was also not the same as its only the name. Peace Walker actually mentioned plot points from Portable Ops (eg, Coldman being the guy who set The Boss up, the mention towards San Hieronymo, etc.). And BTW, if they wanted to avoid acknowledging Portable Ops as canon, they shouldn't have even bothered mentioning Portable Ops in MGS4 at all. Heck, just stick with the CIA Director being the guy who founded the Patriots (which Ocelot's phone call to him pretty much strongly implied that he was indeed the guy who founded the Patriots), and have EVA reiterate the same truth on how The Boss needed to be killed as what she told to Naked Snake years earlier. :::As for what I meant by that statement about Metal Gear 2 not being canon, I'm referring to the fact that most of the plot regarding disarmament was blatantly retconned thanks to MGS using START III, as well as Solid Snake's personality at the ending of the game basically being chucked out of the window (it was implied that he was cured of PTSD nightmares are gone, Colonel. I'm a free man now.") with him coming to terms with his past by defeating Big Boss. That entire development was chucked out of the window by not only making him in the same damaged state as in MG2, but also the strong implications that he was a maniacal killer from both his enemies and even his allies. People used the argument about Big Boss reversing his development in Peace Walker as a reason why Portable Ops must not be canon, I'm using that as a counterpoint. Don't like it, get used to it. :::And if it was outdated, Kojima would have basically done an entire recall of MGS4 so that when he re-releases it, it omits ALL the things that reference Portable Ops and even goes as far as to confirm things that MGS3 originally hinted at (eg, it was the CIA Director who founded the Patriots, not Zero), and he certainly would have deleted that stuff. And BTW, that development timeline is NOT outdated, as it was made DURING Peace Walker's development. Heck, if I were in his position and I wanted it wiped out, that's EXACTLY what I would have done, and I'd probably even go as far as to send a virus to permanently delete those materials as well. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 21:03, September 2, 2012 (UTC) :::EDIT: I read that article, yet he still kept it on the timeline on the development site. Heck, he even allowed the guys to state it was still canon, just not a main chapter in a podcast. If he really wanted it to not be canon, don't you think he'd throw a pitch at them, possibly even berate them in such a harsh manner that they basically consider suicide or stuff like that? Weedle McHairybug (talk) 21:06, September 2, 2012 (UTC) :::EDIT2: Also, I don't particularly care one way or another for Portable Ops, so I really don't have bias one way or another. Heck, the Metal Gear series, as all things, could die for all I care. However, when all those sources exist that state its canon, then the game is canon. My idea of non-canonicity is basically not referencing them at ALL, to the extent that you actually go as far as to get rid of any evidence of their existence (like airbrushing people, or heck, just to use another series example, that alien race in Warhammer 4000 that was recently retconned out of existence to the extent that past copies even exterminated any existence of their cards, data, bios, whatever.). Weedle McHairybug (talk) 21:12, September 2, 2012 (UTC) :::EDIT3: Also, to elaborate on the MGS4 retconning example, they not only had Big Boss not know about Cipher despite Paz, I dunno, explicitly stating word-for-word the backstory of the Patriots given in MGS4, including Big Boss leaving, or hey, how about the implication in the narration at the beginning that Big Boss formed the MSF shortly after disappearing from the United States, meaning not only would MPO not be canon, but MGS4 can't be canon either (Big Boss obviously couldn't even have founded the Patriots if he wasn't in the states), and not even the ending timeline of 3, which specifically mentions FOX's death and FOXHOUND's birth, could have canonically happened, either. And BTW, if they wanted it to not be canon, they'd not reiterate the points mentioned in Portable Ops AT ALL, not even to discourage anyone from playing it. And Kojima had for the record ordered the MGS4 staff to not begin any finalizations on MGS4's story until AFTER MPO's story was finalized. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 21:44, September 2, 2012 (UTC) This conversation makes me weep for humanity. Let it go, guys. --Fantomas (talk) 21:50, September 2, 2012 (UTC) :I will only if he stops trying to claim it's non-canon. I'll at least stop participating in this discussion though. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 21:59, September 2, 2012 (UTC) Gamespot @Weedle Don't you think that Gamespot is just making speculations and we only must see the video before adding infos? Cold Hotman 20:45, August 30, 2012 (UTC) :Good point, although then again, they had to have at least seen the video if they were to describe it. I'll probably hide it for now. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 21:14, August 30, 2012 (UTC) Is it really Naked Snake? Is it really Naked Snake or just another clone of him because he died at the end of MGS 4 so either he got ressurected and regressed in youth or it's a clone. 03:29, August 31, 2012 (UTC) : It IS Big Boss. The game will be set around the late 70's/early 80's. Solid-Boss (talk) 03:47, August 31, 2012 (UTC) : Yeah, it probably is Big Boss. I only hope Liquid Snake will appear in this game, along with more games. : Reptile202 (talk) 04:10, August 31, 2012 (UTC)Reptile202 Reference to Major Zero? I know the title is a pun on the term "Ground Zero", but could it possibly also refer to the presence of Zero and the Patriots? 05:40, August 31, 2012 (UTC) Most probably, since the game is focusing on Big Boss and Zero's proxy war. Maybe this new game will reveal more about Zero's thoughts and actions before the Outer Heaven Uprising of '95. Solid-Boss (talk) 06:21, August 31, 2012 (UTC) Mirrored Image Has anyone noticed that the official "poster" is mirrored? I thought the backwards writing was all fun and games til I realized that Big Boss' MSF logo on his sneaking suit is suppose to be on the left and the gun holster on his left leg is suppose to be on the right. Solid-Boss (talk) 06:26, August 31, 2012 (UTC) Yeah, it's interesting. I knew that Big Boss was right-handed, but in this image the position of the weapon he's holding is suitable for a left-handed person. Cold Hotman 10:56, August 31, 2012 (UTC) BTW, about the demo that they showed in Tokyo, Gamespot mentioned that a "XOF" logo was seen on a helicopter. Does that mean everything in that demo was mirrored, too? Cold Hotman 11:05, August 31, 2012 (UTC) A subtitle gone backwards MAKE IT RIGHT TheRainTransformed (talk) 23:04, August 31, 2012 (UTC) Unrelated images @Weedle Don't you think that these images are not directly related to MGS: Ground Zeroes? A B C They are only related to 25th Anniversary. Cold Hotman 22:42, August 31, 2012 (UTC) :Okay, if necessary, we'll move them to an article dedicated to the 25th Anniversary or to the Metal Gear series article. I have a lot of things to upload before I put them into storage, anyway. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 22:51, August 31, 2012 (UTC) Thanks. I suggested to remove them because in 25th Anniversary some other things were mentioned, too, like MGS: Social Ops, Metal Gear Solid (movie), etc. And we want to have an independent article only for MGS: Ground Zeroes. Cold Hotman 22:56, August 31, 2012 (UTC) I too am in for a 25th Anniversary page dedicated just for the purpose of the anniversary, especially for what got announced and such they did for it. e.g. the UNIQLO tour. Solid-Boss (talk) 08:59, September 1, 2012 (UTC) Logo Does anybody have a bigger version of this pic (specially English version)? So we can use it as the MGS: Ground Zeroes logo. Cold Hotman 12:35, September 1, 2012 (UTC) The child I keep getting this feeling that the kid in the trailer is Solid Snake. Anyone else? 22:41, September 1, 2012 (UTC) Doubt its Solid Snake or Raiden, or Liquid even. If they were, it would have been obvious from scar tissues on his chest. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 22:43, September 1, 2012 (UTC) "She told us everything"... that child has to be chico, and "she" is maybe Amanda... Ah, good point. 23:13, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :Either that, or Paz. Don't forget, she was also captured with him. Weedle McHairybug (talk) 23:17, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :::But wait, if the kid was Chico, it seems he didn't age as much as Big Boss did during the timespan. 23:22, September 1, 2012 (UTC) :::I think the kid might be a new character, because I don't think there are any MG characters with a headphone jack in their chest. :::: :::::Yeah, that would probably make more sense. I'm sure whoever he is, he'll have some kind of big impact. :::::Oh, it is Chico. At 11:20 in this video: :::::http://uk.ign.com/videos/2012/09/01/metal-gear-solid-ground-zeroes-extended-14-minute-demo :::::The guy says that it's Chico. :::: Diamond Dogs? After watching the trailer and the game play. I wonder how this "Diamond Dogs" thing is going to come into this game. That's if it is for this game that is... Solid-Boss (talk) 14:22, September 2, 2012 (UTC) CQC? Due to the lacking of a stun knife or rod in the trailer and posters. I'm guessing CQC or interrogation is absent in this game? Solid-Boss (talk) 14:22, September 2, 2012 (UTC) :You're really drawing that big an assumption from a 10 minute trailer with such a small amount of gameplay? I'm glad you're not a journalist, though they have been jumping to some pretty drastic conclusions themselves. 15:39, September 2, 2012 (UTC)